This is the second part of the overall UI update where we are going to introduce new views and features such as All Cards and All Boards views.
EDIT: Removed the duplicated description. See #52 for the full project description. Also removed the unnecessary comments related to this. Thanks everyone for heads up.
• ‘Boards I shared’
• folders / groups / spaces for organizing board list
• generally: customizable part of navigation section (favorites etc.)
Most-used cards and boards are should on desk, shouldn’t? I don’t know why scrintal team is making side bar. You guys already made the desk, and it’s also a place that you currently work on. There are cards and links on desk, and it’s the currunt work you are focused.
And it’s not a shortcut either. If you want to go to specific board, you can click the card and that card has “appears in” and there’s a board you want to find. It’s a 2 click away. And if you make side bar, it also 2 clicks away. Open side bar and click a board.
Let people guide to use desk not another UI that other note apps have because they need.
@Vision @Gregory Smith Thanks for the feedback, I’ve updated the titles! :)
@박이웅 (박이웅) Hey there! Philipp here from the product team.
First of all, I want to say thank you for providing feedback, but also a glimpse into your workflow with Scrintal.
We are not working on a sidebar because other note-taking apps are using it. We thought about a way to improve Scrintal’s navigation, and how we can make it clear to the user what specific areas are available within Scrintal. Currently, there is no easy way to navigate through Scrintal. There is a lot of functionality underneath what is called the “Archive” for now.
A sidebar as the main navigational layer in a tool is a logical and structured UI element to give the user an idea of the available views and menu elements. Since Scrintal is a minimal and distraction-free tool, we wanted to keep it like that. The beauty about a sidebar is the fact that it can be closed or expanded at any time, which means it is not disrupting the user’s creative space. With the sidebar we are also giving the user some sort of customisation possibilities since users can pin their most-used cards and boards to the sidebar for quick access.
While you described a workflow that is perfectly suited for you (using the desk for most-used cards and navigating to your boards by clicking on a card, scrolling down to the “Appears In” section, and then identifying the board you were looking for), this might not work for others. With the sidebar and the possibility to add starred cards and boards to it for an easier navigation, we introduce another way to keep track of your most-used cards and boards, available right at your fingertips.
The beautiful thing about this sidebar, is the fact that you do not have to use it, if you do not want to. You can stick to your current workflow. :) But for someone who is using the desk as a creative exploration space which would mean the content on the desk would probably change every single time, the sidebar is a great way to keep track of cards and boards you want to get back to, no matter what you are currently working at. Some users want to keep their desk clean after they worked on a dedicated project. Some users move all their cards to an existing or even new board. Some user delete their cards from the desk when they move on to something different. The new sidebar supports multiple workflows. You can stick to yours by using the desk as your place to keep track of your most-used cards, others will soon be able to star their favorite cards and boards right to the sidebar for easier access.
If there are any more questions, I am happy to answer them. :)
Other than that, thank you again for your feedback, we highly appreciate it.
All the best!
Yes, you could make side bar. As you said, I can continue my workflow whether there is sidebar or not. But you are rather small team, and I just hope you guys to focus on what you’ve made already. For me, desk is great place for stared items. If you make possible to create some boards icon or card like board that is linked to some specific board and can put it on desk, then why you need sidebar? Or if some cards are on several boards or one, you can make little pop up ‘show boards’ like ‘show links’ and it can shows boards where the card are even you don’t click the cards.
I just hope you to concentrate the navigation system, like ‘previous page’ on safari ( CMD + [ make you go previous board ), hope you to find more creative way of navigation since Scrintal is more visual tool than others.
See, side bar is just a bunch of lines. for a start, it could be good. but if you have more than 50 favorite cards and 50 boards, is it still a good way? At some point, you may need searching feature inside sidebar. And also you cannot make context with bunch of lines on sidebar. However if those 50 cards and boards are on desk, you can navigate though those cards, it’s much easier to find because there are some links and contexts with.
Other apps, they are just lines of lines of text, and the favorite file and stared notes could be useful. It would be their best way to go where they want. But I just hope your team to find better way, I don’t know what it is, I just can see the glimps of potential. Many people see lots of potential in Scrintal. It’s the only app that really works with my flow of thinking.
In this early stage, I think focusing on what you are good at is better than making up for what you lacks.
I’m not good at english, I want to say more but it takes too much time. ( it takes 40 min now on this reply :) ) I think you got my point, and I understand why you choose to make side bar. Besides I really like this kind of conversation, and thank you very much to listen my idea.
I agree with @박이웅 (박이웅) that it is worth doing the extra soul-searching / soul-keeping work to keep Scrintal unique – and not fall too easily in the trap of retro- / easy-fall-back UI concepts, muddying its uniqueness.
Then, I have a slightly different view on ‘navigational sidebars’, or rather ‘navigational structures’ in general. Let´s skip that a good dynamic sidebar doesn´t need to be something just holding 50 lines. But the real point to me is this – and it indeed is a thinking / conceptualizing question: what the sidebar stands for is the principle of navigation and navigational structures. So what is a navigational structure?! It is a structural space that is functionally and (normally) spatially set aside to act as a short-cut / leverage / overview for the content part (which is the one ‘to be navigated’).
Now, what @박이웅 (박이웅) is saying (and I have some sympathy for that) is basically: Scrintal is the promise of that unique unicorn app, where the navigation can actually be fully embedded in the content space. I see why he is thinking that, and I also wouid like to believe it. This is also the whole raison d´etre for proposals / requests like #25 , which asks for the option to embed boards into other boards – thus basically making it possible to use a content structure / space (a board) to (also) house elements that are associated with navigation. Now, given such a thing, one could see that users can build navigational structures 100% within the given content space / logic, using all the freedom(s) of the spatial whiteboard / mapping space that is at the heart of Scrintal.
While in sympathy with such pure ‘zen-conceptionalism’ … there are some things to be said ‘against’ that. The one most important thing to me is that navigational structures only really pragmatically work if perceived as leverage structures alongside (i.e.: set apart) from content to be naviagted. Everything else simply makes the structure to ‘flat’ and to indistinguishible to be navigated / used by any non zen master. This btw. is one of the reasons, why I was proposing to strongly think about multiple / parallel views in Scrintal (-> #86). Because it elegantly (or so I´d like to think) allow to use one board alongside another, using it as ‘leverage-structure’ (navigation structure) for another parallel set of spaces (see Scrivener and/or Craft for this). One option this leaves to users is setting up some boards rather as navigation structures (boards), and others rather as content boards – then seeing / using them alongside, both viewable in parallel. It allows to stick to the board as unchallenged pivotal and central space (i.e.: no need for a certain kind of sidebar), while also allowing for the separation of navigation / orientation space and content space.
Now there are other reasons one could raise against purism: users are used to pre-defined navigational structures; sidebars are a ‘shorthand’ with better overview, a distinguishible logical structure separate from content etc..
But regardless of where you land on all this (or, what you prefer practically, or philosophically), I think the real important point that @박이웅 (박이웅) strong and emphatic intervention ‘against the sidebar’ is raising is this: think hard, and think conceptually in line with the philosophy you want to represent. As he says: one of the main culprits derailing visionary software projects, flattening their vision and potential is not following @박이웅 (박이웅) strongest line: focusing on what you are good at is better than making up for what you lacks.
– And I would add: understand what conceptual problem you want to solve and solve it with the best potentials your software idea gives you, instead of simply copying established and vested UI-concepts, that belong to past visions…
Thank you both for sharing your feedback. I truly feel privileged to have such forward thinkers as you among our early beta users. There is so much we can do to boost the powers of boards and visual navigation and we already have plans for it.
Having said that, there are so many people who would like to use and get some sort of value from Scrintal but they feel a little lost. One of the main reasons for this is the unfamiliarity to what they are used to, at least to some extent.
I also understand them! There is a ton of research about how our brains process info and why familar products/music/habits are more likely to stick. There are many success stories even for songs just because they were placed between two familiar songs.
Because of that we made a decision to integrate a bar like this. However, vast majority of the developments will most likely happen in visual way of working anyway. You can think of this as a help to more general population who still seek a familiar interface. As @Philipp Temmel said, we will do this without compromising on the simplicity and functinality.
Thanks again for these great insights. @Vision @박이웅 (박이웅) your ideas and way of thinking is fantastic. Hope to chat with you more on this topic and get your input in the near future.
This was an excelent experience to read these thoughts - it helped me to solve my personal conundrum of which of two apps in the knowledge-notes sector I should pick. Thank you!